Together Project Season 2 - Episode 1: Removing Barriers in Church Leadership with Larry Osborne

Join host Kadi Cole as she sits down with Larry Osborne long-time pastor of North Coast Church and renowned author and coach. In this episode, Larry candidly shares his journey in developing female leaders within the church and the strategies employed by innovative churches to foster thriving environments for all leaders. Discover the impact of transitioning his senior pastor role to Chris Brown and its effect on female leadership within the church. Gain insights into gender roles, leadership dynamics, and practical advice for church leaders from Larry's extensive experience.

Transcript

  📍  

 Today I'm honored to have Larry Osborne joining us on the podcast. If you're not familiar with Larry, he has been the pastor at North Coast Church in Southern California since the 1980s, which is one of the earliest pioneers in the multi site movement.

He is the author of numerous books and has trained and coached thousands of top level leaders in churches across the country. Today, Larry shares candidly about the bumps and aha moments of his own journey in developing female leaders. And you'll learn about some specific strategies that he and other innovative churches are using to cultivate environments where every leader can thrive.

You'll also talk about the impact of handing his senior pastor at successfully over to pastor Chris Brown and the impact that's had on female leaders in his church. I think you're really going to enjoy today's conversation with Larry Osborne.

Is that good?

audio is  

Mostly look at Katie when I'm talking or yeah.

so when start and when  camera. Okay. And you  other back and 

forth.  

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And then when I do the podcast thing, and we're talking about supervision, right? Was what it was.

Yeah, delegation.

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all she's got to do is here, let me explain the chart and then you'll pop it up. Yeah. And 

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either full screen or her or whatever works best. So perfect. Okay.

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video. 

Thanks, Tana. So great to meet you in person. Thanks for all the work and help.

You're welcome. Okay.

Let Tana, let me know after you do the thing or if you, I think Twitter, I never count the words you might have to, 

And then somewhere between 30 and 45 minutes. Okay. That's my thought.

Do you wanna give me the sign when it's 30? 



He's gonna have a

actual, 

you, am I gonna be able to see it the whole

time? You wanna, here

gonna, I'm gonna sit here. I'll just, can I gotta stand.  Full service. I always forget  Oh, I have a little clip that goes right here. 

Oh, got it. The you did pretty good on the most important things. I think if that's the one thing you forgot, you're in good shape. Yeah. Thanks for coming out and doing this here. This is really helpful. And a total gift with this podcast, so thanks for And  it's feels like you could set up a million different little vignettes.

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And are you getting the cove lights in these shots a little bit?  

them 

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You'll start out talking to that and then just switch and after that we can go anywhere we  Yeah, we  filming.  

 

  📍 Hey everybody, thanks so much for joining us again on the podcast. I'm here with Larry Osborne in your home in Southern California. Thanks for hosting us here today.

 Hey, glad to be here.

 , so we're going to talk a  little bit about your journey in understanding women's role in church and how that plays into  your theology and you as a senior pastor.

Tell us a little bit about the context you grew up in around gender. for having me. As a child. And then what you see now as an adult that you couldn't see  then.

Yeah. As a child, I probably wasn't very aware of the church we went to,  how they thought about things. It's just being done.  So it was very much a complimentarian  type of model. They didn't really talk about that much. So there wasn't  in my context, any idea of a, say a woman lead pastor   or women being on the board, since they never talked, it's just what it was. 

And there'd be women.

spoke from

the  main stage back there, even in that environment, they'd always be missionaries   that we're visiting. So I didn't really pick up much of a  theological or a church background as a church, my mom and dad went to, but, ,  My dad's respect for my mom and the  relationship they had,  probably shaped me far more than anything about the church and my dad's really had a model that his job was to maximize his wife and his  my mom's gifts  are backgrounds, hospitality, kind of mercy and all that. A lot of what might be  stereotypically female roles, but it never, it just never dawned on me that any of that was  you're supposed to do this and  you're supposed to     so I just grew up with a example more than a framework.

Through which to think about 

And you grew up in Southern California, right? What was the context around gender in your community? Like in the schools you went to or your neighborhood, any sort of like roles or gender stereotypes?

there would,  I had a female principal.

at one school and

a male principal and female teachers  and male teachers.

So it really wasn't anything I thought about now,  obviously culturally,  systemically within a culture and all those phrases we want to use there were a lot of, ,  expectations, but even when I was  a young kid, there was a push that a woman can be a fireman and, all of that, at least here. 

And so that's one of the things, so many different   parts of the country have such different, ,  experiences, but it was like, you can be anything you want. We're  part of the books that I grew up in elementary school. And   

and so as you grew up then and started to enter into ministry, when did you become aware that gender was a thing in the church world? 

 So I grew up around the church. I got all that information, but the church I grew up in was incredibly legalistic. Now on this issue, they never talked about it,   but boy, they talked about everything. They were far more worried about  what was in your refrigerator than what was in your heart.

This long list of things, a little bit of us four and no more are  really committed  So I really wanted nothing to  do with the church. It was a kind of a cultural revolution era it touch  But then  I came to Jesus and had  a great hunger for  I was fascinated. I remember what really happened. I was driving on some. Camp or something. And I was reading  through Matthew and I went,  this is real  history. 

this

isn't religious history.  It was like a bolt almost  and one 80. And  so as I started like studying the Bible and listening to people,  that's suddenly when people started talking to me about biblical roles, who can do what, who can't, and because I had such a hunger for  scripture.

The  desire was early on I got to line everything up with a Bible. Even the book of Acts was for me much more of a recipe than a description of what

happened   

so like we got to do this, we got to do that. And   was only later I  maybe he's telling the story than giving a recipe  single   

So

that kind of started you on your quest to understand scripture differently than the way you grew up was,  female leadership. One of those topics you looked at early on, or were you just  

Not 

really.  You just move  through the stages of what the biggest battle  And the biggest battle in that culture, it was,  I'm a really old dude. So I go back to the beginning of the so called Jesus movement when I was in high school and back then you had an absolutely anti  authoritarian. You also had  anti anything biblical. They called it modern man won't believe in miracles.

Now it's postmodern man. It's  funny for me as many decades as I've been in  ministry, we've changed the titles with the same arguments, right?  You can't teach the Bible. Modern man won't  really believe that authority. And now we go  postmodern,  right? So in that era, the real big battle was,  is Jesus the only way?

Is the Bible true, or is it just a bunch of made up stuff? And so you always deal with the  biggest issues and then later on they come. So for somebody of my era.  That wasn't the  issue. The issue was, did Jesus historically   really live? I would have said that, whereas today most people would agree that's a fact,   who he, we claim him to be isn't.  

I would have said back then in the late sixties and seventies, most educated people would have said he never existed.  

Interesting. 

 

Not even thinking about this.  

Why do you think this is such a big issue now in the culture then?   

We always reflect the culture. And I think sometimes once one  battle is one, you start to think differently.

Now,  I realized theologically all kinds of different people are going to be listening to this, but I'll give an example and you can. People can agree  with me or not, but there was this thing called the Schofield Bible   📍 King  📍 James version with Schofield's Bible study notes. And, ,  back at that point, that's when all, some of the German,   studies and all these things, again, we're saying, oh, the  Bible wasn't really written back then.

And later on archaeology, we discovered stuff.  Oh, we have manuscripts  but if everybody's  saying this was put together hundreds of years later and all that. Then Schofield comes  along and he takes the Bible seriously.  So when the battle for the Bible to use of old phrase is taking place of  whether it's made up myth or true, and Schofield comes along and treats it,  you treat everything he says in his book as read, like  it's written in red, the old Jesus words.

Okay.  Then fast forward, that battle was won.  It's  no, this actually, you might believe it or not, but it is actually  a contemporary, , story of Jesus, et cetera. And so then  you start to question, huh, I wonder if his, description of exactly when and how Jesus is coming back is right. Does that make sense?

so over time, once one  battles one, you start to look at your heroes or your people who won the battle, and then you  question,  oh you're right about that.  And I think that's what happens in culture sometimes. Now we're in a very self destructive  culture,

sadly

where you know, any  past mistake, there's no mercy, no grace or whatever.

So we throw out people who  had blind spots in the past as if we don't have any  today. But I think that's part of the history of why it changes. You solve one  problem and then you start to wonder oh, they were so right here,  but  huh, maybe he wasn't right about

this.  Does that make sense?

 Yep, absolutely.

As you said, you've been around a little while,  and one of the things I appreciate about your leadership is you tend to swim in a lot of different,  ponds. You connect with a lot of different tribes,  you have a really well rounded perspective around, especially  the American church. From your observation over the years, how would you say   the journey for male leaders into ministry   is different than female leaders?

Kind of overall, what have you seen and experienced?

 I think the door was just wide open for male leaders and in, in some of the tribes   there was even this idea, if you're in vocational  ministry, you're in a higher calling.

 We'd bring up all the kids that were going off to  a Bible school or seminary and pray for them. The kid going off to engineering school is  totally ignored.

And ,  at that point it was considered a great job. And then women, when I  look back, they were encouraged to go on the mission field and what was  interesting to me, one of my first huh, this doesn't make sense   was why  were women allowed to do certain things on the mission field that some people didn't want  them doing here?

It felt racist to me.  

That's a lot of times the underlying, another

ethnicity, another group,  a woman can lead here.  But she  can't wait here. And  I'm going back to very different definitions of racism and ethnicity than we  would have today. We're talking decades ago, but there was little seeds of   this doesn't make a lot of   But I think for men, it was a wide open door. And for women, it was just assumed children's  ministry, , or something that had to,   do with nurturing. And of course, one of the things we have to remember, we  forget is there weren't many big churches   going back, Oh, even 30, 40 years 

Calvary

Chapel, when it exploded was the front  of major newspapers and all the magazines back when that was  a thing.

And they were all of about two to 4, 000.     and today I don't know how many churches are that size.

again,

the number I told my head, but  quite a

few. 

a church, typical churches, two to four or 500,,   there weren't executive pastor roles. There  weren't executive roles. There was a pastor and  associate who ran all the other sort of stuff.

And that might be, and a secretary,   

which is a  In terms of paid staff roles. Yeah. Yeah. So.  

I don't know what would have happened if

women

had felt a calling.   And I think that's one thing we forget now when we look back is  there weren't slots to be filled.  

 So you introduced me to your sister who's fantastic. Talk a little bit, cause you've shared with me some  thoughts on just watching her journey in leadership.  She's also a very strong leader, but it's been very different than yours.

Just tell our audience a little bit about what you've observed there. 

Linda is,   got a lot of drive and a desire for influence.

And yet she's got all kinds of voices in her set head that say, 

Do the appropriate thing. So she had obviously much more battles. With that,  as opportunities would arise for her,    and she was also in a local church setting that was very strong in its distinctions of men and women. And  Linda and I've talked about it sometimes that, perhaps  sometimes even her visceral response is not  so much to roles as they are in the church, that might be the reflection of how roles were done in that    

because one church that influenced her a lot, not only had strong, rigid things, a woman can do this, not that, but they even had age things. I remember when,   a gentleman that was about 45 years old was on a board and they kept calling him a young man.

 So, uh, I mean,

it's like, so in a very different way, there's just dude, I'm running a company, I own  a company that, our business is bigger than the church budget here.

And you're treating me like  a young intern.  you know, They've got different things.  I know.  One of the things that is always tough for women, and I think at times for Linda is figuring out,   where do I step up and where do I go along with the

game?

Yeah.   

And where am I not being respected?

Because the men don't   respond to me as women respond   and I think that's one of the harder things  for women leaders. They've got to decide, okay, if  I'm a male arena, am I willing to quit complaining about the weird way men do things   and play the game?   my personal advice is, I think that's what The best way to do it just like I  moved to different tribes.

Like you talk, we were talking earlier.   There are certain key phrases and things I've got to do there. I will  dress differently based on where I am not like being  authentic to myself, which is much of our culture, not just women, our culture, any compromise  or make is not being authentic. And there are  certain things men do that I don't think women naturally do.

It's  not someone. It's. gender role.  The studies that little girls play together, facing each other and boys  don't.

There  is a big piece of leadership of knowing your audience, whether you're communicating or leading or trying to persuade them to something, you have to know the people in the room.

And that does change dynamics based on a lot of things. Yeah. 

I 

go speak somewhere

Should

should I wear this or that? Can I say this or not? And and men speak over one another.  

Yes. They actually interrupt for very different reasons than women interrupt.

Yes. 

And  when a woman's finding herself in a predominantly male room. 

Which it isn't always predominantly, let's  say, but there's one or two, it's like you got to learn to  interrupt

and

learn not to be, feel like you were put down when you were interrupted. Like that's just what   

And it's what leadership spaces do because I think the other thing is as you grow in leadership those rooms move faster They make decisions quicker.

You have to come prepared to give your  opinion You can't wait on it and think it or verbally process it.   So there are some shifts that change Just in the leadership space. And then if you add male, like it's a higher male majority, those things dynamics

  As just men and women.

So I had the privilege of spending the  last few days with a group of eight high powered  executive ladies. And I'm in that room going certain times.   And I probably didn't do it all very well, but there's  certain times I

did.  Well, you did

well, Cause somebody be talking and I just interrupt and I'd go, Oh

crap

I just,  I just did what I did in the locker room with a bunch of guys on a team, but this is a different dynamic.

 And, so I think that's part of the whole confusion.

 It's, there's two things. There's  are opportunities being illegitimately   taken away. 

And are we trying, are men trying to  make women into men and women trying to make  men into women?    It's The body of christ at its  best has simon the zealot and matthew the tax collector and it has  men and it has women and they are  They're allowed to be different. 

Yes, and the goal is to lead together not give up who you are. That's what we're looking for. So   Larry talk us a little bit of the journey of your role as senior pastor and at North Coast. How has this  topic Changed over time and what have been some of the strategic things you've done and now Chris taking over as lead pastor What are some of the shifts and changes you all have implemented over the years?   

One of the things is even before I was a lead pastor, I had a strong understanding that when you're King, you  have some authority and when you're not, you're called to  submission without permission.  violating,  biblical codes. You just don't,  it's not blind submission. It's a Hebrew midwives line is saying, Oh, they just pop them out before we can kill.

the  little Hebrew boys or Rahab or whatever it  and so early on, I only knew what I knew. So I instituted some things that I  think are stricter than I would have done later  because I grew up in a complementarian thing.  At that point at North Coast, it's Oh, I'm in charge now. You can't have both men and women or be complimentary   men only like on an elder board.

So our elder board was all men.  Over time that progressed and probably pretty quickly  within the first five, six years to, Oh,  we've got a few guys on our board who think men are smarter than women. So one of the first little things I noticed was there was a board member is I got to get him off   because he thinks his wife's opinion doesn't  count. 

we're

going to have guys, if they're not informed by their wives or daughters and the women they know,  so that was a  shift. That was probably one of the earliest

shifts,  

a sense  our, women voices respected, which was different than, are they at the table  totally 

really 

great.

So  it was more about making sure you had the right mindsets  about women at the table.

That,   that was my first huh, experience with being a leader within a Gallic,  not a Gallic, complimentary kind of theology background and realizing   

Oh,

I just assume women were of value. Their voices mattered.  And then to realize under that theology, there was a very,  one guy literally said that's my wife's opinion, but  what does she  And that was the day it's  I got to get this dude off.   That was probably three, four years into the church, tiny little church startup.  Looking at it from other theological perspectives,  that's no big  But being honest with you, that  was,

that's a pretty bold move actually.

When you're just brand new church plant. But

was  my first realization. Huh, there's some cracks in this mindset.  

Okay. That's great. What are some others that came along?   

As we added people to our staff there was,   in most of my tribe, not all of my tribe, there was a different   titles that were used. So going again, and we're talking 20, 30 years,  30 years ago or more, she's doing the exact  same work that if a guy was in that role, he'd be called a pastor, he'd be up for a  housing allowance and all that.

So why are we not  calling her a pastor?  My own personal opinion could be wrong. I'm just, 

Yeah, I just want your

is, is,  Is the phrase elder is a male phrase.   So I didn't want to change we have female elders, but the  pastor sometimes is an elder, they're  synonymous, but it's a description of a role. What do you do?

You shepherd  people, 

  

Which is the word pastor. Why do we, some young guy that's working with the youth, we let him call himself a youth pastor and we won't let her   

So when was that when you started 

That's 

probably 30 ago.

Oh, 

wow.  Okay. 

again, what happens back to what I said about Schofield, that certain things become trigger  points because people are always looking to argue.

That's our flesh.   I, Paul says in first Corinthians 11, when you gather together,  I hear more harm is done than good.

And then he

makes this  really sarcastic comment because you have to prove who's superior spiritually. 

And so  

we get into these, right?  They're  important, but not very important arguments.

 So I look back in  a church that would have been called very complimentarian, at the very beginning days, we had women speakers,  Marilyn Laszlo was her name, this great communicator. We'd  have her every year and everybody loved it. And then there was a time in the tribe, I'd look later, and if she  spoke, that was a sign of you were    on some slippery slope and      That's

weird. So it's,  people are always looking.  for something to  see what side you're on. Yeah. And to fight. And so for me, I just    

there anything  that you're doing now, any parts of your own leadership that you've shifted or changed around this topic?   

I got to go back when I was a lead

pastor. So it's been,

been, I think four and a half, maybe five years   stepped in that role and I just became a kingdom  ambassador teaching pastor here. But, Probably one of the things, and  again, people can agree  or disagree. I'm just sharing a thought. I'm not, don't think I'm inerrant,  but I often tend to talk to church planners these days, it might not be good to use the word elder  when you put together a governing board,   because the word's a perfectly good word, but it has two problems.

One is it's come to mean superior theology  

And

Theologians  love to argue.   the word elder, I'm an elder. I have authority and everything runs  through a theological

grid. So I

church planners, be careful. I probably wouldn't have done that. I would have called it a governing board.     because in the book of Acts,    It's telling

us what they did.

Jesus didn't authorize deacons,  deaconesses, elders, or church councils. The spirit came up with those things when  the great commission was sidetracked because we don't want  Gentiles because we're overwhelmed by passing out the checks to the widows and all these fights that anytime the  great commission got sidetracked, they reorganized.

 To  the main lesson of say Acts chapter six on deacons. Not do you have deacons  like they did, but are you willing to reorganize   when the gospel is being 

by

something? Again, same with church councils.  So  that's probably the biggest thing over the last.  years I was at North Coast and continue to work with lots of churches is say, let's be careful  we don't put models in place that are going to restrict the   so

in terms of our subject,   my own personal thing, if you're going to call them  elders, I'm not comfortable with a woman being in that   If you're going to call it a governing board, I'm very comfortable with a woman being in  We had women, our executive  team at

North

Coast Church. We never even thought about it. 

Like she's really smart and smarter than any guy we got in this subject. Will you be in this meeting?    we really didn't go at it from theological,   like we're going to argue about it. I'm very theological as I tell people

I

I have a Bible verse for everything,  even if it's out of context.

one of

my degrees  is systematic theology, but at the end of the day It's about the gospel and the world I'm living in.  

What other advice would you give to,  pastors, new church planters,   as they  navigate, it's a big topic. A lot of men are wanting to find their way. And again, regardless of theology, they're wanting to make sure they're maximizing the potential of women.

What would be some other pieces of advice?  

say you need to understand the framework you're in because there's a lot of ways to do things without poking  people in the eye.  

so if

I'm in a situation where I feel like, man, women are being underused, but we've got all of these titles.  Hardly  anybody worries about who's invited to the meeting   and then we get all this stuff about titles.

And so I've spent most of my life, anybody who knows my  ministry background, the innovations and things that we did   were learning how to just do it instead of get, I call it permission instead of buy in. I don't have to sell everybody why this is the best idea, how we're doing  it. Make some big statement.

You just quietly do the right  And so I'd say, let's say  you're in a hyper complementarian thing, and that's  your tribe, that's your job, you've been there forever, yes,  I, go well,  find a way to listen to women.  I mentioned to you, I won't name the person, somebody  who's very much in that camp, theologically and personally, and yet I've not seen anybody that listens and respects women,   opinion and input as much as he  does.

Yeah. And gives them authority to do all kinds of things. But so I go, we'll take what you can get,  

and what would you say to someone who's maybe in a more egalitarian  environment because you work with a lot of those kind of churches also,  

All the time.

 And  I would say in our research, at least we found that people oftentimes  struggled to put women into higher leadership roles all across the  theological spectrum.

Any thoughts  for that group?

  really, because to me it's so individual. I look at somebody and go you tell me this great person. Why not? Now, one of the unspoken things is sometimes women  get off the  The ladder, bearing children or whatever. And  I think sometimes,  As we're championing the role of women, we forget that men also there are men who choose to be a stay at home dad.  

and

there are men who decide for them a work like balance at a certain level is important. If you look at them, they too don't rise to  top. So there's really, I think, two things. Sometimes   it's choices, it's station in life, and then other times it's gender. And when we lump them together,   confusion. 

So

cause 

  I've heard you talk about some of the choices you made to parent better think complaints or feedback you got from your kids that adjusted the way you were using your time.  

Absolutely. And that closed doors. I  absolutely believe North Coast is, as a, was thousands smaller than,  we were huge to most people, but we could have  been two, three, 4, 000 more.

Had I been willing to do a few  things, I wasn't willing to do,  because I felt my first calling  was to my wife and my     That also closed the door to certain opportunities, nationally, Hey, will you be  on this? Which is a stepping stone to that. And like I never rose  there cause I wasn't willing to do it.

So I think   women, complementarian, hyper egalitarian extremes,  everything in between need to take a little look  and say are some men who have made the same choices I am going through that.   So is this my choice? Or.  No, I've made all these same choices and this is a real lid of the organization.

And I  do think sometimes men either underestimate or don't talk about the same lids they might reach also for those choices and being informed about what we're choosing and  

Yeah. Cause they'll be upset too. Why haven't, 

That's exactly right. I've  

supervised that also.  

dude you have this thing that you're unwilling to do this. I'm sorry, that's  for,

and those are important calling. So we want people to make those choices.

You can  see across the board. Sometimes we see things in another environment.

So just think  across the board out of COVID.  

COVID 

right.

Anybody in, in  a vocational ministry leadership experience a bunch of people who said, wow, I still want to be in  ministry, but I don't want to work on weekends.  And it's  it's hard to have a church job, yeah. But I was with my kids games or   

So it's all about choices really for most of it. 

But 

here's another thing I would tell everybody you have to look in the mirror and ask,  are you trying to get  something done or are you trying to get affirmation?   Because no  I'm going to have a chip on my shoulder. I got all this  influence. I got all this kingdom stuff done, but I wasn't  honored the way I wanted to be titled the way I wanted to be.

Then I go, that's a spiritual issue. Cause guys  go through that. Me as a founding pastor,   if you will, of a church,   I have a bunch of people who were always saying what about this in terms of art or culture.     

And I go if I'm in any way upset for any little dis, and I wasn't dishonored at North Coast, but   if I start worrying about the honor I got then I wasn't doing for  Jesus.  I deal with some succession people and they'll go, yeah, but I did this and that. I go,  yeah, you did it for Jesus or you did it as  on this back end, you're going to get all this stuff. And  so I think sometimes I would tell a woman.  Okay, you didn't get honored, but Jesus didn't get honored in his hometown and prophets are killed and then they make a monument to him after they're

dead  

So just do what you need to do. And if you've got to burn your saddle, a past hurt, it's okay, but make sure you're shaped  by it, not defined by it.    I see that's not just women that's across the board. Our greatest hurts when they shape us, make us better. When they define us, make us worse.  

Oh, that's very good. Any other thoughts or resources or things you'd recommend for people who are exploring this in their own leadership?   

That's a shameless plug for your

book. Feel free.   

Developing Female Leaders, right?

you even got the title right. I'm really impressed.

Frankly, that was, I'm sure there's a lot of others.  Again, I've just done ministry.  I never went on, I want to research this subject or I like never did. The best of the  books I've seen was yours. And  that's why I've spoken highly of it.

 And there might be better books out there and there might be a whole bunch as good. I don't know, because  I'm just not wired to be somebody that  says I'm going to research this for six months and make a big thing. I just,  I don't know. Maybe I'm

don't think   

lazy. I don't think lazy, but I do want to thank you though.

You have always been incredibly supportive of  me personally, even before I did the book or anything, when  we were in some multi site experiences together, but definitely your endorsement and just some  of the help you gave me in the book and then being able to work with you  now to help develop female leaders together is a real honor.

So So thanks for letting us be here. And to  your tech crew for hosting us. You definitely upped our game in the podcast  world today.  And so I appreciate you and your leadership in the kingdom. So thanks, Larry. 

Great.

Katie. Good to be with you

 then can you look at the center camera and then smile for about two seconds 

say the word cheese.

That's smart. 

okay. 

By the way.

 Is that good?

audio is  Mostly look at Katie when I'm talking or yeah.

so when start and when  camera. Okay. And you  other back and 

forth.  

that you're not sure  it that  a pause, 

And then when I do the podcast thing, and we're talking about supervision, right? Was what it was.

Yeah, delegation.

And

all she's got to do is here, let me explain the chart and then you'll pop it up. Yeah. And 

Okay, and

either full screen or her or whatever works best. So perfect. Okay.

Great!  we are  

video. 

Thanks, Tana. So great to meet you in person. Thanks for all the work and help.

You're welcome. Okay.

Let Tana, let me know after you do the thing or if you, I think Twitter, I never count the words you might have to, 

And then somewhere between 30 and 45 minutes. Okay. That's my thought.

Do you wanna give me the sign when it's 30? 

He's gonna have a

actual, 

you, am I gonna be able to see it the whole

time? You wanna, here

gonna, I'm gonna sit here. I'll just, can I gotta stand.  Full service. I always forget  Oh, I have a little clip that goes right here. 

Oh, got it. The you did pretty good on the most important things. I think if that's the one thing you forgot, you're in good shape. Yeah. Thanks for coming out and doing this here. This is really helpful. And a total gift with this podcast, so thanks for And  it's feels like you could set up a million different little vignettes.

A  

And are you getting the cove lights in these shots a little bit?  

them 

So it's good to keep them on. 

Yeah. that's great. That's good? 

You'll start out talking to that and then just switch and after that we can go anywhere we  Yeah, we  filming. 

Hey everybody, thanks so much for joining us again on the podcast. I'm here with Larry Osborne in your home in Southern California. Thanks for hosting us here today.

Hey, glad to be here.

So we're going to talk a little bit about your journey in understanding women's role in church and how that plays into your theology and you as a senior pastor.

Tell us a little bit about the context you grew up in around gender. for having me. As a child. And then what you see now as an adult that you couldn't see then.

Yeah. As a child, I probably wasn't very aware of the church we went to, how they thought about things. It's just being done. So it was very much a complimentarian type of model. They didn't really talk about that much. So there wasn't in my context, any idea of a, say a woman lead pastor or women being on the board, but since they never talked, it's just what it was.

And there'd be women.

spoke from

the main stage back there, even in that environment, they'd always be missionaries that we're visiting. So I didn't really pick up much of a theological or a church background as a church, my mom and dad went to, but My dad's respect for my mom and the relationship they had probably shaped me far more than anything about the church and my dad's really had a model that his job was to maximize his wife and his my mom's gifts are backgrounds, hospitality, kind of mercy and all that. A lot of what might be stereotypically female roles, but it never, it just never dawned on me that any of that was you're supposed to do this and you're supposed to so I just grew up with a example more than a framework.

Through which to think about 

And you grew up in Southern California, right? What was the context around gender in your community? Like in the schools you went to or your neighborhood, any sort of like roles or gender stereotypes?

there would, I had a female principal.

at one school and

a male principal and female teachers and male teachers.

So it really wasn't anything I thought about now, obviously culturally, systemically within a culture and all those phrases we want to use there were a lot of expectations, but even when I was a young kid, there was a push that a woman can be a fireman and, all of that, at least here. 

And so that's one of the things, so many different pockets and parts of the country have such different experiences, but it was like you can be anything you want. We're  part of the books that I grew up in elementary school. And  

and so as you grew up then and started to enter into ministry, when did you become aware that gender was a thing in the church world? 

probably a I got saved later. So I grew up around the church. I got all that information, but the church I grew up in was incredibly legalistic. Now on this issue, they never talked about it, but boy, they talked about everything. They were far more worried about what was in your refrigerator than what was in your heart.

This long list of things, a little bit of us four and no more are really committed  So I really wanted nothing to do with the church. It was a kind of a cultural revolution era it touch  But then I came to Jesus and had a great hunger for  I was fascinated. I remember what really happened. I was driving on some. Camp or something. And I was reading through Matthew and I went,  this is real history. 

this

isn't religious history. It was like a bolt almost  and one 80. And so as I started like studying the Bible and listening to people, that's suddenly when people started talking to me about biblical roles, who can do what, who can't and because I had such a hunger for scripture.

The desire was early on I got to line everything up with a Bible. Even the book of Acts was for me much more of a recipe than a description of what

happened 

so like we got to do this, we got to do that. And was only later I maybe he's telling the story than giving a recipe  single  

So

that kind of started you on your quest to understand scripture differently than the way you grew up was female leadership. One of those topics you looked at early on, or were you just Not 

really. You just move through the stages of what the biggest battle  And the biggest battle in that culture, it was I'm a really old dude. So I go back to the beginning of the so called Jesus movement when I was in high school and back then you had an absolutely anti authoritarian. You also had anti anything biblical. They called it modern man won't believe in miracles.

Now it's postmodern man. It's funny for me as many decades as I've been in ministry, we've changed the titles with the same arguments, right? You can't teach the Bible. Modern man won't really believe that authority. And now we go  postmodern, right? So in that era, the real big battle was is Jesus the only way?

Is the Bible true, or is it just a bunch of made up stuff? And so you always deal with the biggest issues and then later on they come. So for somebody of my era.  That wasn't the issue. The issue was, did Jesus historically really live? I would have said that, whereas today most people would agree that's a fact,  who he, we claim him to be isn't.

I would have said back then in the late sixties and seventies, most educated people would have said he never existed. 

Interesting. 

Thinking about this.

Why do you think this is such a big issue now in the culture then?

We always reflect the culture. And I think sometimes once one battle is one, you start to think differently.

Now, I realized theologically all kinds of different people are going to be listening to this, but I'll give an example and you can. People can agree with me or not, but there was this thing called the Schofield Bible King James version with Schofield's Bible study notes. And back at that point, that's when all, some of the German studies and all these things, again, we're saying, oh, the Bible wasn't really written back then.

And later on archaeology, we discovered stuff. Oh, we have manuscripts  but if everybody's saying this was put together hundreds of years later and all that. Then Schofield comes along and he takes the Bible seriously. So when the battle for the Bible to use of old phrase is taking place of whether it's made up myth or true, and Schofield comes along and treats it you treat everything he says in his book as read, like it's written in red, the old Jesus words.

Okay. Then fast forward, that battle was won.  It's no, this actually, you might believe it or not, but it is actually a contemporary story of Jesus, et cetera. And so then you start to question, huh, I wonder if his description of exactly when and how Jesus is coming back is right. Does that make sense?

So over time, once one battles one, you start to look at your heroes or your people who won the battle, and then you question,  oh you're right about that. And I think that's what happens in culture sometimes. Now we're in a very self destructive culture,

sadly

where you know, any past mistake, there's no mercy, no grace or whatever.

So we throw out people who had blind spots in the past as if we don't have any today. But I think that's part of the history of why it changes. You solve one problem and then you start to wonder oh, they were so right here, but  huh, maybe he wasn't right about

this. Does that make sense?

Yep, absolutely.

As you said, you've been around a little while, and one of the things I appreciate about your leadership is you tend to swim in a lot of different ponds. You connect with a lot of different tribes, you have a really well rounded perspective around, especially the American church.  From your observation over the years, how would you say the journey for male leaders into ministry is different than female leaders?

Kind of overall, what have you seen and experienced?

I think the door was just wide open for male leaders and in, in some of the tribes there was even this idea, if you're in vocational ministry, you're in a higher calling.

We'd bring up all the kids that were going off to a Bible school or seminary and pray for them. The kid going off to engineering school is totally ignored.

And At that point it was considered a great job. And then women, when I look back, they were encouraged to go on the mission field and what was interesting to me, one of my first huh, this doesn't make sense was why were women allowed to do certain things on the mission field that some people didn't want them doing here?

It felt racist to me. 

That's a lot of times the underlying, another

ethnicity, another group a woman can lead here.  But she can't wait here. And I'm going back to very different definitions of racism and ethnicity than we would have today. We're talking decades ago, but there was little seeds of this doesn't make a lot of  But I think for men, it was a wide open door. And for women, it was just assumed children's ministry or something that had to do with nurturing. And of course, one of the things we have to remember, we forget is there weren't many big churches going back, Oh, even 30, 40 years

Calvary

Chapel, when it exploded was the front of major newspapers and all the magazines back when that was a thing.

And they were all of about two to 4, 000.  and today I don't know how many churches are that size.

again,

the number I told my head, but quite a

few. 

a church, typical churches, two to four or 500 there weren't executive pastor roles. There weren't executive roles. There was a pastor and associate who ran all the other sort of stuff.

And that might be, and a secretary, 

which is a  In terms of paid staff roles. Yeah. Yeah. 

I don't know what would have happened if

women

had felt a calling. And I think that's one thing we forget now when we look back is there weren't slots to be filled. 

So you introduced me to your sister who's fantastic. Talk a little bit, cause you've shared with me some thoughts on just watching her journey in leadership. She's also a very strong leader, but it's been very different than yours.

Just tell our audience a little bit about what you've observed there.

Linda is got a lot of drive and a desire for influence.

And yet she's got all kinds of voices in her set head that say

do the appropriate thing. So she had obviously much more battles. With that as opportunities would arise for her and she was also in a local church setting that was very strong in its distinctions of men and women. And Linda and I've talked about it sometimes that perhaps sometimes even her visceral response is not so much to  roles as they are in the church, that might be the reflection of how roles were done in that . because one church that influenced her a lot, not only had strong, rigid things, a woman can do this, not that, but they even had age things. I remember when a gentleman that was about 45 years old was on a board and they kept calling him a young man.

It's so in a very different way, there's just dude, I'm running a company, I own a company that, our business is bigger than the church budget here.

And you're treating me like a young intern. They've got different things. I know.  One of the things that is always tough for women, and I think at times for Linda is figuring out,  where do I step up and where do I go along with the

game?

Yeah.

And where am I not being respected?

Because the men don't  respond to me as women respond  and I think that's one of the harder things for women leaders. They've got to decide, okay, if I'm a male arena, am I willing to quit complaining about the weird way men do things and play the game?  my personal advice is, I think that's what The best way to do it just like I moved to different tribes.

Like you talk, we were talking earlier. There are certain key phrases and things I've got to do there. I will dress differently based on where I am not like being authentic to myself, which is much of our culture, not just women, our culture, any compromise or make is not being authentic. And there are certain things men do that I don't think women naturally do.

It's not someone. It's. gender role. The studies that little girls play together, facing each other and boys  don't.

There is a big piece of leadership of knowing your audience, whether you're communicating or leading or trying to persuade them to something, you have to know the people in the room.

And that does change dynamics based on a lot of things. Yeah.

I 

go speak somewhere

Should

should I wear this or that? Can I say this or not? And and men speak over one another.

Yes. They actually interrupt for very different reasons than women interrupt.

Yes. 

And when a woman's finding herself in a predominantly male room. 

Which it isn't always predominantly, let's say, but there's one or two, it's like you got to learn to interrupt

and

learn not to be, feel like you were put down when you were interrupted. Like that's just what 

And it's what leadership spaces do because I think the other thing is as you grow in leadership those rooms move faster They make decisions quicker.

You have to come prepared to give your opinion You can't wait on it and think it or verbally process it. So there are some shifts that change Just in the leadership space. And then if you add male, like it's a higher male majority, those things dynamics

As just men and women.

So I had the privilege of spending the last few days with a group of eight high powered executive ladies. And I'm in that room going certain times. And I probably didn't do it all very well, but there's certain times I

did. You did

Cause somebody be talking and I just interrupt and I'd go, Oh

crap

I just I just did what I did in the locker room with a bunch of guys on a team, but this is a different dynamic.

And so I think that's part of the whole confusion.

It's, there's two things. There's are opportunities being illegitimately taken away. 

And are we trying, are men trying to make women into men and women trying to make men into women? And it's The body of christ at its best has simon the zealot and matthew the tax collector and it has men and it has women and they are  They're allowed to be different.

Yes, and the goal is to lead together not give up who you are. That's what we're looking for. So  Larry talk us a little bit of the journey of your role as senior pastor and at North Coast. How has this topic Changed over time and what have been some of the strategic things you've done and now Chris taking over as lead pastor What are some of the shifts and changes you all have implemented over the years?

One of the things is even before I was a lead pastor, I had a strong understanding that when you're King, you have some authority and when you're not, you're called to submission without permission.  violating, biblical codes. You just don't, it's not blind submission. It's a Hebrew midwives line is saying, Oh, they just pop them out before we can kill.

the little Hebrew boys or Rahab or whatever it and so early on, I only knew what I knew. So I instituted some things that I think are stricter than I would have done later because I grew up in a complementarian thing. At that point at North Coast, it's Oh, I'm in charge now. You can't have both men and women or be complimentary men only like on an elder board.

So our elder board was all men. Over time that progressed and probably pretty quickly within the first five, six years to, Oh, we've got a few guys on our board who think men are smarter than women. So one of the first little things I noticed was there was a board member is I got to get him off because he thinks his wife's opinion doesn't count. 

we're

going to have guys, if they're not informed by their wives or daughters and the women they know,  so that was a shift. That was probably one of the earliest

shifts,

a sense our women voices respected, which was different than, are they at the table  totally

really 

great.

So it was more about making sure you had the right mindsets about women at the table.

That, that was my first huh, experience with being a leader within a Gallic, not a Gallic, complimentary kind of theology background and realizing 

Oh,

I just assume women were of value. Their voices mattered. And then to realize under that theology, there was a very, one guy literally said that's my wife's opinion, but what does she  And that was the day it's I got to get this dude off.  That was probably three, four years into the church, tiny little church startup. Looking at it from other theological perspectives,  that's no big  But being honest with you, that was,

that's a pretty bold move actually.

When you're just brand new church plant. But

was my first realization. Huh, there's some cracks in this mindset.

Okay. That's great. What are some others that came along?

As we added people to our staff there was in most of my tribe, not all of my tribe, there was a different titles that were used. So going again, and we're talking 20, 30 years, 30 years ago or more she's doing the exact same work that if a guy was in that role, he'd be called a pastor, he'd be up for a housing allowance and all that.

So why are we not calling her a pastor?  My own personal opinion could be wrong. I'm just,

Yeah, I just want your

Is the phrase elder is a male phrase.

So I didn't want to change we have female elders, but the pastor sometimes is an elder, they're synonymous, but it's a description of a role. What do you do?

You shepherd people which is the word pastor. Why do we, some young guy that's working with the youth, we let him call himself a youth pastor and we won't let her  

So when was that when you started

That's 

probably 30 ago.

Oh, 

wow. Okay. 

again, what happens back to what I said about Schofield, that certain things become trigger points because people are always looking to argue.

That's our flesh. I, Paul says in first Corinthians 11, when you gather together, I hear more harm is done than good.

And then he

makes this really sarcastic comment because you have to prove who's superior spiritually. 

And so

we get into these, right?  They're important, but not very important arguments.

So I look back in a church that would have been called very complimentarian, at the very beginning days, we had women speakers, Marilyn Laszlo was her name, this great communicator. We'd have her every year and everybody loved it. And then there was a time in the tribe, I'd look later, and if she spoke, that was a sign of you were  on some slippery slope and  That's

weird. So it's, people are always looking.  for something to see what side you're on. Yeah. And to fight. And so for me, I just  

there anything that you're doing now, any parts of your own leadership that you've shifted or changed around this topic?

I got to go back when I was a lead

pastor. So it's been,

been, I think four and a half, maybe five years  stepped in that role and I just became a kingdom ambassador teaching pastor here. But Probably one of the things, and  again, people can agree or disagree. I'm just sharing a thought. I'm not, don't think I'm inerrant, but I often tend to talk to church planners these days, it might not be good to use the word elder when you put together a governing board because the word's a perfectly good word, but it has two problems.

One is it's come to mean superior theology 

And

Theologians love to argue.  And the word elder, I'm an elder. I have authority and everything runs through a theological

grid. So I

church planners, be careful. I probably wouldn't have done that. I would have called it a governing board.  because in the book of Acts

It's telling

us what they did.

Jesus didn't authorize deacons, deaconesses, elders, or church councils. The spirit came up with those things when the great commission was sidetracked because we don't want Gentiles because we're overwhelmed by passing out the checks to the widows and all these fights that anytime the great commission got sidetracked, they reorganized.

To  the main lesson of say Acts chapter six on deacons. Not do you have deacons like they did, but are you willing to reorganize when the gospel is being 

by something? Again, same with church councils.  So that's probably the biggest thing over the last.  years I was at North Coast and continue to work with lots of churches is say, let's be careful we don't put models in place that are going to restrict the  so

in terms of our subject my own personal thing, if you're going to call them elders, I'm not comfortable with a woman being in that If you're going to call it a governing board, I'm very comfortable with a woman being in  We had women, our executive team at

North

Coast Church. We never even thought about it.

Like she's really smart and smarter than any guy we got in this subject. Will you be in this meeting?  we really didn't go at it from theological, like we're going to argue about it. I'm very theological as I tell people

I

I have a Bible verse for everything, even if it's out of context.

one of

my degrees is systematic theology, but at the end of the day It's about the gospel and the world I'm living in. 

What other advice would you give to pastors, new church planters as they navigate, it's a big topic. A lot of men are wanting to find their way. And again, regardless of theology, they're wanting to make sure they're maximizing the potential of women.

What would be some other pieces of advice?

say you need to understand the framework you're in because there's a lot of ways to do things without poking people in the eye. 

so if

I'm in a situation where I feel like, man, women are being underused, but we've got all of these titles.  Hardly anybody worries about who's invited to the meeting and then we get all this stuff about titles.

And so I've spent most of my life, anybody who knows my ministry background, the innovations and things that we did were learning how to just do it instead of get, I call it permission instead of buy in. I don't have to sell everybody why this is the best idea, how we're doing it. Make some big statement.

You just quietly do the right  And so I'd say, let's say you're in a hyper complementarian thing, and that's your tribe, that's your job, you've been there forever, yes,  I, go find a way to listen to women. I mentioned to you, I won't name the person, somebody who's very much in that camp, theologically and personally, and yet I've not seen anybody that listens and respects women,  opinion and input as much as he does.

Yeah. And gives them authority to do all kinds of things. But so I go, we'll take what you can get, 

and what would you say to someone who's maybe in a more egalitarian environment because you work with a lot of those kind of churches also,

All the time.

And I would say in our research, at least we found that people oftentimes struggled to put women into higher leadership roles all across the theological spectrum.

Any thoughts for that group? 

really, because to me it's so individual. I look at somebody and go you tell me this great person. Why not? Now, one of the unspoken things is sometimes women get off the The ladder, bearing children or whatever. And I think sometimes, As we're championing the role of women, we forget that men also there are men who choose to be a stay at home dad.

and

there are men who decide for them a work like balance at a certain level is important. If you look at them, they too don't rise to top. So there's really, I think, two things. Sometimes it's choices, it's station in life, and then other times it's gender. And when we lump them together confusion. 

So

cause 

I've heard you talk about some of the choices you made to parent better think complaints or feedback you got from your kids that adjusted the way you were using your time.

Absolutely. And that closed doors. I absolutely believe North Coast is, as a, was thousands smaller than, we were huge to most people, but we could have been two, three, 4, 000 more.

Had I been willing to do a few things, I wasn't willing to do because I felt my first calling was to my wife and my  That also closed the door to certain opportunities, nationally, Hey, will you be on this? Which is a stepping stone to that. And like I never rose there cause I wasn't willing to do it.

So I think women, complementarian, hyper egalitarian extremes, everything in between need to take a little look and say are some men who have made the same choices I am going through that. So is this my choice? Or. No, I've made all these same choices and this is a real lid of the organization.

And I do think sometimes men either underestimate or don't talk about the same lids they might reach also for those choices and being informed about what we're choosing and

Yeah. Cause they'll be upset too. Why haven't, 

That's exactly right. I've 

supervised that also.

dude you have this thing that you're unwilling to do this. I'm sorry, that's for,

and those are important calling. So we want people to make those choices.

You can see across the board. Sometimes we see things in another environment.

So just think across the board out of COVID.

COVID 

right.

Anybody in, in a vocational ministry leadership experience a bunch of people who said, wow, I still want to be in ministry, but I don't want to work on weekends.  And it's it's hard to have a church job, yeah. But I was with my kids games or so. 

So it's all about choices really for most of it. 

But

here's another thing I would tell everybody you have to look in the mirror and ask are you trying to get something done or are you trying to get affirmation?  Because no I'm going to have a chip on my shoulder. I got all this influence. I got all this kingdom stuff done, but I wasn't honored the way I wanted to be titled the way I wanted to be.

Then I go, that's a spiritual issue. Cause guys go through that. Me as a founding pastor, if you will, of a church I have a bunch of people who were always saying what about this in terms of art or culture.

And I go if I'm in any way upset for any little dis, and I wasn't dishonored at North Coast, but if I start worrying about the honor I got then I wasn't doing for Jesus.

I deal with some succession people and they'll go, yeah, but I did this and that. I go,  yeah, you did it for Jesus or you did it as on this back end, you're going to get all this stuff. And so I think sometimes I would tell a woman.  Okay, you didn't get honored, but Jesus didn't get honored in his hometown and prophets are killed and then they make a monument to him after they're

dead

So just do what you need to do. And if you've got to burn your saddle, a past hurt, it's okay, but make sure you're shaped by it, not defined by it.  And I see that's not just women that's across the board. Our greatest hurts when they shape us, make us better. When they define us, make us worse.

Oh, that's very good. Any other thoughts or resources or things you'd recommend for people who are exploring this in their own leadership?

That's a shameless plug for your

book. Feel free. 

Developing Female Leaders, right?

you even got the title right. I'm really impressed.

Frankly, that was, I'm sure there's a lot of others. Again, I've just done ministry. I never went on, I want to research this subject or I like never did. The best of the books I've seen was yours. And that's why I've spoken highly of it.

And there might be better books out there and there might be a whole bunch as good. I don't know, because I'm just not wired to be somebody that says I'm going to research this for six months and make a big thing. I just,  I don't know. Maybe I'm

don't think 

lazy. I don't think lazy, but I do want to thank you though.

You have always been incredibly supportive of me personally, even before I did the book or anything, when we were in some multi site experiences together, but definitely your endorsement and just some of the help you gave me in the book and then being able to work with you now to help develop female leaders together is a real honor.

So So thanks for letting us be here. And to your tech crew for hosting us. You definitely upped our game in the podcast world today. And so I appreciate you and your leadership in the kingdom. So thanks, Larry. 

Great.

Katie. Good to be with you 

then can you look at the center camera and then smile for about two seconds 

say the word cheese.

That's smart. 

okay. 

By the way.

 Is that good?

audio is  Mostly look at Katie when I'm talking or yeah.

so when start and when  camera. Okay. And you  other back and 

forth.  

that you're not sure  it that  a pause, 

And then when I do the podcast thing, and we're talking about supervision, right? Was what it was.

Yeah, delegation.

And

all she's got to do is here, let me explain the chart and then you'll pop it up. Yeah. And 

Okay, and

either full screen or her or whatever works best. So perfect. Okay.

Great!  we are  

video. 

Thanks, Tana. So great to meet you in person. Thanks for all the work and help.

You're welcome. Okay.

Let Tana, let me know after you do the thing or if you, I think Twitter, I never count the words you might have to, 

And then somewhere between 30 and 45 minutes. Okay. That's my thought.

Do you wanna give me the sign when it's 30? 

He's gonna have a

actual, 

you, am I gonna be able to see it the whole

time? You wanna, here

gonna, I'm gonna sit here. I'll just, can I gotta stand.  Full service. I always forget  Oh, I have a little clip that goes right here. 

Oh, got it. The you did pretty good on the most important things. I think if that's the one thing you forgot, you're in good shape. Yeah. Thanks for coming out and doing this here. This is really helpful. And a total gift with this podcast, so thanks for And  it's feels like you could set up a million different little vignettes.

A  

And are you getting the cove lights in these shots a little bit?  

them 

So it's good to keep them on. 

Yeah. that's great. That's good? 

You'll start out talking to that and then just switch and after that we can go anywhere we  Yeah, we  filming. 

Hey everybody, thanks so much for joining us again on the podcast. I'm here with Larry Osborne in your home in Southern California. Thanks for hosting us here today.

Hey, glad to be here.

So we're going to talk a little bit about your journey in understanding women's role in church and how that plays into your theology and you as a senior pastor.

Tell us a little bit about the context you grew up in around gender. for having me. As a child. And then what you see now as an adult that you couldn't see then.

Yeah. As a child, I probably wasn't very aware of the church we went to, how they thought about things. It's just being done. So it was very much a complimentarian type of model. They didn't really talk about that much. So there wasn't in my context, any idea of a, say a woman lead pastor or women being on the board, but since they never talked, it's just what it was.

And there'd be women.

spoke from

the main stage back there, even in that environment, they'd always be missionaries that we're visiting. So I didn't really pick up much of a theological or a church background as a church, my mom and dad went to, but My dad's respect for my mom and the relationship they had probably shaped me far more than anything about the church and my dad's really had a model that his job was to maximize his wife and his my mom's gifts are backgrounds, hospitality, kind of mercy and all that. A lot of what might be stereotypically female roles, but it never, it just never dawned on me that any of that was you're supposed to do this and you're supposed to so I just grew up with a example more than a framework.

Through which to think about 

And you grew up in Southern California, right? What was the context around gender in your community? Like in the schools you went to or your neighborhood, any sort of like roles or gender stereotypes?

there would, I had a female principal.

at one school and

a male principal and female teachers and male teachers.

So it really wasn't anything I thought about now, obviously culturally, systemically within a culture and all those phrases we want to use there were a lot of expectations, but even when I was a young kid, there was a push that a woman can be a fireman and, all of that, at least here. 

And so that's one of the things, so many different pockets and parts of the country have such different experiences, but it was like you can be anything you want. We're  part of the books that I grew up in elementary school. And  

and so as you grew up then and started to enter into ministry, when did you become aware that gender was a thing in the church world? 

probably a I got saved later. So I grew up around the church. I got all that information, but the church I grew up in was incredibly legalistic. Now on this issue, they never talked about it, but boy, they talked about everything. They were far more worried about what was in your refrigerator than what was in your heart.

This long list of things, a little bit of us four and no more are really committed  So I really wanted nothing to do with the church. It was a kind of a cultural revolution era it touch  But then I came to Jesus and had a great hunger for  I was fascinated. I remember what really happened. I was driving on some. Camp or something. And I was reading through Matthew and I went,  this is real history. 

this

isn't religious history. It was like a bolt almost  and one 80. And so as I started like studying the Bible and listening to people, that's suddenly when people started talking to me about biblical roles, who can do what, who can't and because I had such a hunger for scripture.

The desire was early on I got to line everything up with a Bible. Even the book of Acts was for me much more of a recipe than a description of what

happened 

so like we got to do this, we got to do that. And was only later I maybe he's telling the story than giving a recipe  single  

So

that kind of started you on your quest to understand scripture differently than the way you grew up was female leadership. One of those topics you looked at early on, or were you just Not 

really. You just move through the stages of what the biggest battle  And the biggest battle in that culture, it was I'm a really old dude. So I go back to the beginning of the so called Jesus movement when I was in high school and back then you had an absolutely anti authoritarian. You also had anti anything biblical. They called it modern man won't believe in miracles.

Now it's postmodern man. It's funny for me as many decades as I've been in ministry, we've changed the titles with the same arguments, right? You can't teach the Bible. Modern man won't really believe that authority. And now we go  postmodern, right? So in that era, the real big battle was is Jesus the only way?

Is the Bible true, or is it just a bunch of made up stuff? And so you always deal with the biggest issues and then later on they come. So for somebody of my era.  That wasn't the issue. The issue was, did Jesus historically really live? I would have said that, whereas today most people would agree that's a fact,  who he, we claim him to be isn't.

I would have said back then in the late sixties and seventies, most educated people would have said he never existed. 

Interesting. 

Thinking about this.

Why do you think this is such a big issue now in the culture then?

We always reflect the culture. And I think sometimes once one battle is one, you start to think differently.

Now, I realized theologically all kinds of different people are going to be listening to this, but I'll give an example and you can. People can agree with me or not, but there was this thing called the Schofield Bible King James version with Schofield's Bible study notes. And back at that point, that's when all, some of the German studies and all these things, again, we're saying, oh, the Bible wasn't really written back then.

And later on archaeology, we discovered stuff. Oh, we have manuscripts  but if everybody's saying this was put together hundreds of years later and all that. Then Schofield comes along and he takes the Bible seriously. So when the battle for the Bible to use of old phrase is taking place of whether it's made up myth or true, and Schofield comes along and treats it you treat everything he says in his book as read, like it's written in red, the old Jesus words.

Okay. Then fast forward, that battle was won.  It's no, this actually, you might believe it or not, but it is actually a contemporary story of Jesus, et cetera. And so then you start to question, huh, I wonder if his description of exactly when and how Jesus is coming back is right. Does that make sense?

So over time, once one battles one, you start to look at your heroes or your people who won the battle, and then you question,  oh you're right about that. And I think that's what happens in culture sometimes. Now we're in a very self destructive culture,

sadly

where you know, any past mistake, there's no mercy, no grace or whatever.

So we throw out people who had blind spots in the past as if we don't have any today. But I think that's part of the history of why it changes. You solve one problem and then you start to wonder oh, they were so right here, but  huh, maybe he wasn't right about

this. Does that make sense?

Yep, absolutely.

As you said, you've been around a little while, and one of the things I appreciate about your leadership is you tend to swim in a lot of different ponds. You connect with a lot of different tribes, you have a really well rounded perspective around, especially the American church.  From your observation over the years, how would you say the journey for male leaders into ministry is different than female leaders?

Kind of overall, what have you seen and experienced?

I think the door was just wide open for male leaders and in, in some of the tribes there was even this idea, if you're in vocational ministry, you're in a higher calling.

We'd bring up all the kids that were going off to a Bible school or seminary and pray for them. The kid going off to engineering school is totally ignored.

And At that point it was considered a great job. And then women, when I look back, they were encouraged to go on the mission field and what was interesting to me, one of my first huh, this doesn't make sense was why were women allowed to do certain things on the mission field that some people didn't want them doing here?

It felt racist to me. 

That's a lot of times the underlying, another

ethnicity, another group a woman can lead here.  But she can't wait here. And I'm going back to very different definitions of racism and ethnicity than we would have today. We're talking decades ago, but there was little seeds of this doesn't make a lot of  But I think for men, it was a wide open door. And for women, it was just assumed children's ministry or something that had to do with nurturing. And of course, one of the things we have to remember, we forget is there weren't many big churches going back, Oh, even 30, 40 years

Calvary

Chapel, when it exploded was the front of major newspapers and all the magazines back when that was a thing.

And they were all of about two to 4, 000.  and today I don't know how many churches are that size.

again,

the number I told my head, but quite a

few. 

a church, typical churches, two to four or 500 there weren't executive pastor roles. There weren't executive roles. There was a pastor and associate who ran all the other sort of stuff.

And that might be, and a secretary, 

which is a  In terms of paid staff roles. Yeah. Yeah. 

I don't know what would have happened if

women

had felt a calling. And I think that's one thing we forget now when we look back is there weren't slots to be filled. 

So you introduced me to your sister who's fantastic. Talk a little bit, cause you've shared with me some thoughts on just watching her journey in leadership. She's also a very strong leader, but it's been very different than yours.

Just tell our audience a little bit about what you've observed there.

Linda is got a lot of drive and a desire for influence.

And yet she's got all kinds of voices in her set head that say

do the appropriate thing. So she had obviously much more battles. With that as opportunities would arise for her and she was also in a local church setting that was very strong in its distinctions of men and women. And Linda and I've talked about it sometimes that perhaps sometimes even her visceral response is not so much to  roles as they are in the church, that might be the reflection of how roles were done in that . because one church that influenced her a lot, not only had strong, rigid things, a woman can do this, not that, but they even had age things. I remember when a gentleman that was about 45 years old was on a board and they kept calling him a young man.

It's so in a very different way, there's just dude, I'm running a company, I own a company that, our business is bigger than the church budget here.

And you're treating me like a young intern. They've got different things. I know.  One of the things that is always tough for women, and I think at times for Linda is figuring out,  where do I step up and where do I go along with the

game?

Yeah.

And where am I not being respected?

Because the men don't  respond to me as women respond  and I think that's one of the harder things for women leaders. They've got to decide, okay, if I'm a male arena, am I willing to quit complaining about the weird way men do things and play the game?  my personal advice is, I think that's what The best way to do it just like I moved to different tribes.

Like you talk, we were talking earlier. There are certain key phrases and things I've got to do there. I will dress differently based on where I am not like being authentic to myself, which is much of our culture, not just women, our culture, any compromise or make is not being authentic. And there are certain things men do that I don't think women naturally do.

It's not someone. It's. gender role. The studies that little girls play together, facing each other and boys  don't.

There is a big piece of leadership of knowing your audience, whether you're communicating or leading or trying to persuade them to something, you have to know the people in the room.

And that does change dynamics based on a lot of things. Yeah.

I 

go speak somewhere

Should

should I wear this or that? Can I say this or not? And and men speak over one another.

Yes. They actually interrupt for very different reasons than women interrupt.

Yes. 

And when a woman's finding herself in a predominantly male room. 

Which it isn't always predominantly, let's say, but there's one or two, it's like you got to learn to interrupt

and

learn not to be, feel like you were put down when you were interrupted. Like that's just what 

And it's what leadership spaces do because I think the other thing is as you grow in leadership those rooms move faster They make decisions quicker.

You have to come prepared to give your opinion You can't wait on it and think it or verbally process it. So there are some shifts that change Just in the leadership space. And then if you add male, like it's a higher male majority, those things dynamics

As just men and women.

So I had the privilege of spending the last few days with a group of eight high powered executive ladies. And I'm in that room going certain times. And I probably didn't do it all very well, but there's certain times I

did. You did

Cause somebody be talking and I just interrupt and I'd go, Oh

crap

I just I just did what I did in the locker room with a bunch of guys on a team, but this is a different dynamic.

And so I think that's part of the whole confusion.

It's, there's two things. There's are opportunities being illegitimately taken away. 

And are we trying, are men trying to make women into men and women trying to make men into women? And it's The body of christ at its best has simon the zealot and matthew the tax collector and it has men and it has women and they are  They're allowed to be different.

Yes, and the goal is to lead together not give up who you are. That's what we're looking for. So  Larry talk us a little bit of the journey of your role as senior pastor and at North Coast. How has this topic Changed over time and what have been some of the strategic things you've done and now Chris taking over as lead pastor What are some of the shifts and changes you all have implemented over the years?

One of the things is even before I was a lead pastor, I had a strong understanding that when you're King, you have some authority and when you're not, you're called to submission without permission.  violating, biblical codes. You just don't, it's not blind submission. It's a Hebrew midwives line is saying, Oh, they just pop them out before we can kill.

the little Hebrew boys or Rahab or whatever it and so early on, I only knew what I knew. So I instituted some things that I think are stricter than I would have done later because I grew up in a complementarian thing. At that point at North Coast, it's Oh, I'm in charge now. You can't have both men and women or be complimentary men only like on an elder board.

So our elder board was all men. Over time that progressed and probably pretty quickly within the first five, six years to, Oh, we've got a few guys on our board who think men are smarter than women. So one of the first little things I noticed was there was a board member is I got to get him off because he thinks his wife's opinion doesn't count. 

we're

going to have guys, if they're not informed by their wives or daughters and the women they know,  so that was a shift. That was probably one of the earliest

shifts,

a sense our women voices respected, which was different than, are they at the table  totally

really 

great.

So it was more about making sure you had the right mindsets about women at the table.

That, that was my first huh, experience with being a leader within a Gallic, not a Gallic, complimentary kind of theology background and realizing 

Oh,

I just assume women were of value. Their voices mattered. And then to realize under that theology, there was a very, one guy literally said that's my wife's opinion, but what does she  And that was the day it's I got to get this dude off.  That was probably three, four years into the church, tiny little church startup. Looking at it from other theological perspectives,  that's no big  But being honest with you, that was,

that's a pretty bold move actually.

When you're just brand new church plant. But

was my first realization. Huh, there's some cracks in this mindset.

Okay. That's great. What are some others that came along?

As we added people to our staff there was in most of my tribe, not all of my tribe, there was a different titles that were used. So going again, and we're talking 20, 30 years, 30 years ago or more she's doing the exact same work that if a guy was in that role, he'd be called a pastor, he'd be up for a housing allowance and all that.

So why are we not calling her a pastor?  My own personal opinion could be wrong. I'm just,

Yeah, I just want your

Is the phrase elder is a male phrase.

So I didn't want to change we have female elders, but the pastor sometimes is an elder, they're synonymous, but it's a description of a role. What do you do?

You shepherd people which is the word pastor. Why do we, some young guy that's working with the youth, we let him call himself a youth pastor and we won't let her  

So when was that when you started

That's 

probably 30 ago.

Oh, 

wow. Okay. 

again, what happens back to what I said about Schofield, that certain things become trigger points because people are always looking to argue.

That's our flesh. I, Paul says in first Corinthians 11, when you gather together, I hear more harm is done than good.

And then he

makes this really sarcastic comment because you have to prove who's superior spiritually. 

And so

we get into these, right?  They're important, but not very important arguments.

So I look back in a church that would have been called very complimentarian, at the very beginning days, we had women speakers, Marilyn Laszlo was her name, this great communicator. We'd have her every year and everybody loved it. And then there was a time in the tribe, I'd look later, and if she spoke, that was a sign of you were  on some slippery slope and  That's

weird. So it's, people are always looking.  for something to see what side you're on. Yeah. And to fight. And so for me, I just  

there anything that you're doing now, any parts of your own leadership that you've shifted or changed around this topic?

I got to go back when I was a lead

pastor. So it's been,

been, I think four and a half, maybe five years  stepped in that role and I just became a kingdom ambassador teaching pastor here. But Probably one of the things, and  again, people can agree or disagree. I'm just sharing a thought. I'm not, don't think I'm inerrant, but I often tend to talk to church planners these days, it might not be good to use the word elder when you put together a governing board because the word's a perfectly good word, but it has two problems.

One is it's come to mean superior theology 

And

Theologians love to argue.  And the word elder, I'm an elder. I have authority and everything runs through a theological

grid. So I

church planners, be careful. I probably wouldn't have done that. I would have called it a governing board.  because in the book of Acts

It's telling

us what they did.

Jesus didn't authorize deacons, deaconesses, elders, or church councils. The spirit came up with those things when the great commission was sidetracked because we don't want Gentiles because we're overwhelmed by passing out the checks to the widows and all these fights that anytime the great commission got sidetracked, they reorganized.

To  the main lesson of say Acts chapter six on deacons. Not do you have deacons like they did, but are you willing to reorganize when the gospel is being 

by something? Again, same with church councils.  So that's probably the biggest thing over the last.  years I was at North Coast and continue to work with lots of churches is say, let's be careful we don't put models in place that are going to restrict the  so

in terms of our subject my own personal thing, if you're going to call them elders, I'm not comfortable with a woman being in that If you're going to call it a governing board, I'm very comfortable with a woman being in  We had women, our executive team at

North

Coast Church. We never even thought about it.

Like she's really smart and smarter than any guy we got in this subject. Will you be in this meeting?  we really didn't go at it from theological, like we're going to argue about it. I'm very theological as I tell people

I

I have a Bible verse for everything, even if it's out of context.

one of

my degrees is systematic theology, but at the end of the day It's about the gospel and the world I'm living in. 

What other advice would you give to pastors, new church planters as they navigate, it's a big topic. A lot of men are wanting to find their way. And again, regardless of theology, they're wanting to make sure they're maximizing the potential of women.

What would be some other pieces of advice?

say you need to understand the framework you're in because there's a lot of ways to do things without poking people in the eye. 

so if

I'm in a situation where I feel like, man, women are being underused, but we've got all of these titles.  Hardly anybody worries about who's invited to the meeting and then we get all this stuff about titles.

And so I've spent most of my life, anybody who knows my ministry background, the innovations and things that we did were learning how to just do it instead of get, I call it permission instead of buy in. I don't have to sell everybody why this is the best idea, how we're doing it. Make some big statement.

You just quietly do the right  And so I'd say, let's say you're in a hyper complementarian thing, and that's your tribe, that's your job, you've been there forever, yes,  I, go find a way to listen to women. I mentioned to you, I won't name the person, somebody who's very much in that camp, theologically and personally, and yet I've not seen anybody that listens and respects women,  opinion and input as much as he does.

Yeah. And gives them authority to do all kinds of things. But so I go, we'll take what you can get, 

and what would you say to someone who's maybe in a more egalitarian environment because you work with a lot of those kind of churches also,

All the time.

And I would say in our research, at least we found that people oftentimes struggled to put women into higher leadership roles all across the theological spectrum.

Any thoughts for that group? 

really, because to me it's so individual. I look at somebody and go you tell me this great person. Why not? Now, one of the unspoken things is sometimes women get off the The ladder, bearing children or whatever. And I think sometimes, As we're championing the role of women, we forget that men also there are men who choose to be a stay at home dad.

and

there are men who decide for them a work like balance at a certain level is important. If you look at them, they too don't rise to top. So there's really, I think, two things. Sometimes it's choices, it's station in life, and then other times it's gender. And when we lump them together confusion. 

So

cause 

I've heard you talk about some of the choices you made to parent better think complaints or feedback you got from your kids that adjusted the way you were using your time.

Absolutely. And that closed doors. I absolutely believe North Coast is, as a, was thousands smaller than, we were huge to most people, but we could have been two, three, 4, 000 more.

Had I been willing to do a few things, I wasn't willing to do because I felt my first calling was to my wife and my  That also closed the door to certain opportunities, nationally, Hey, will you be on this? Which is a stepping stone to that. And like I never rose there cause I wasn't willing to do it.

So I think women, complementarian, hyper egalitarian extremes, everything in between need to take a little look and say are some men who have made the same choices I am going through that. So is this my choice? Or. No, I've made all these same choices and this is a real lid of the organization.

And I do think sometimes men either underestimate or don't talk about the same lids they might reach also for those choices and being informed about what we're choosing and

Yeah. Cause they'll be upset too. Why haven't, 

That's exactly right. I've 

supervised that also.

dude you have this thing that you're unwilling to do this. I'm sorry, that's for,

and those are important calling. So we want people to make those choices.

You can see across the board. Sometimes we see things in another environment.

So just think across the board out of COVID.

COVID 

right.

Anybody in, in a vocational ministry leadership experience a bunch of people who said, wow, I still want to be in ministry, but I don't want to work on weekends.  And it's it's hard to have a church job, yeah. But I was with my kids games or so. 

So it's all about choices really for most of it. 

But

here's another thing I would tell everybody you have to look in the mirror and ask are you trying to get something done or are you trying to get affirmation?  Because no I'm going to have a chip on my shoulder. I got all this influence. I got all this kingdom stuff done, but I wasn't honored the way I wanted to be titled the way I wanted to be.

Then I go, that's a spiritual issue. Cause guys go through that. Me as a founding pastor, if you will, of a church I have a bunch of people who were always saying what about this in terms of art or culture.

And I go if I'm in any way upset for any little dis, and I wasn't dishonored at North Coast, but if I start worrying about the honor I got then I wasn't doing for Jesus.

I deal with some succession people and they'll go, yeah, but I did this and that. I go,  yeah, you did it for Jesus or you did it as on this back end, you're going to get all this stuff. And so I think sometimes I would tell a woman.  Okay, you didn't get honored, but Jesus didn't get honored in his hometown and prophets are killed and then they make a monument to him after they're

dead

So just do what you need to do. And if you've got to burn your saddle, a past hurt, it's okay, but make sure you're shaped by it, not defined by it.  And I see that's not just women that's across the board. Our greatest hurts when they shape us, make us better. When they define us, make us worse.

Oh, that's very good. Any other thoughts or resources or things you'd recommend for people who are exploring this in their own leadership?

That's a shameless plug for your

book. Feel free. 

Developing Female Leaders, right?

you even got the title right. I'm really impressed.

Frankly, that was, I'm sure there's a lot of others. Again, I've just done ministry. I never went on, I want to research this subject or I like never did. The best of the books I've seen was yours. And that's why I've spoken highly of it.

And there might be better books out there and there might be a whole bunch as good. I don't know, because I'm just not wired to be somebody that says I'm going to research this for six months and make a big thing. I just,  I don't know. Maybe I'm

don't think 

lazy. I don't think lazy, but I do want to thank you though.

You have always been incredibly supportive of me personally, even before I did the book or anything, when we were in some multi site experiences together, but definitely your endorsement and just some of the help you gave me in the book and then being able to work with you now to help develop female leaders together is a real honor.

So So thanks for letting us be here. And to your tech crew for hosting us. You definitely upped our game in the podcast world today. And so I appreciate you and your leadership in the kingdom. So thanks, Larry. 

Great.

Katie. Good to be with you 

then can you look at the center camera and then smile for about two seconds 

say the word cheese.

That's smart. 

okay. 

By the way.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        📍